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Do you believe that the US economy is more important than US ethics and morals?

Yes, the economy is more important--without a strong economy there is no future
No, we were founded as a moral nation--it is critically important to our country
I have a different take on the balance of ethics and the economy

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1. Patricia Pomerleau CEOExpressSelect Member
     Forum Moderator
     (10/17/2018 8:57:04 AM)
     Message ID #313113

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News reports this morning state that the Washington Post reporter Jamal Khashoggi was not only murdered by a hit team closely connected to the Saudi government, but, according to recordings, he was dismembered by a pathology/autopsy expert while still alive.

Meanwhile, back at the White House, President Trump on Tuesday defended Saudi Arabia in the face of mounting allegations that Riyadh was involved in the Saudi journalist’s alleged killing--including the killers being closely connected to the Saudi Crown Prince.

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo met with President Erogan and security officials in Turkey and is receiving detailed information on the killing including that the Saudi consul general, Mohammad al-Otaibi, was in the room at the time of the killing. A voice on the recording can be heard inviting him to leave--seems odd that a Counsul General would be involved in a 'rogue" murder.

The medieval dismemberment of Khashoggi is not the only moral issue facing our country. We have babies being torn from their mother's arms at the border. Republicans running for office have a focus on removing pre-existing conditions from health care. However, at the same time, we have record employment levels and the stock market has (mostly) been roaring.

Do US citizens have to take a side? Being a moral country versus a strong economy?

  • Are we at that point in our country's history where growing the US economy by any means is more important than ethics and morals?
  • Can we afford to care or support others in the new US and world economy?
  • Is the economy of the country a platform from which more good can be done or less?
  • If, as President Trump wishes, the Federal reserve was under the control of the president, would things be better or worse?
  • What would you say to President Trump about his turning a blind eye to murder?
  • What would you say to President Trump about his handling of the economy?
  • Is there a way to grow the economy while remaining a morally strong nation or are these mutually exclusive positions?
  • What do you think President Trump will do if mounting evidence shows the close hand of the Saudi prince in this gristly murder?
  • What do you think Congress should do if the President decides to back the Saudi Prince without question or sanction?

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2. R Fahrbach
     (10/17/2018 9:34:21 AM)
     Message ID #313114

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Only a post-modern liberal would even dare to suggest to your face that the only way to deliver a well managed economy is through immoral and ethical means.

That's truly sick!

3. Patricia Pomerleau CEOExpressSelect Member
     Forum Moderator
     (10/17/2018 9:47:23 AM)
     Message ID #313115

This message is in response to R Fahrbach ( message id #313114 )  View All Related Messages

So, why don't you actually mount an argument like you used to rather than your unbridled support to Trump and attacks of anyone who doesn't support Trump.

Medieval dismemberment in trade for Trump condo purchases. Even I didn't think Trump would sink to that level.

4. Patricia Pomerleau CEOExpressSelect Member
     Forum Moderator
     (10/17/2018 9:52:33 AM)
     Message ID #313116

This message is in response to Patricia Pomerleau ( message id #313115 )  View All Related Messages

One chuckle I had this morning was the thought of Kavanaugh's face in the mirror when he heard Trump comparing his nomination before congress to the Saudi government dismemberment of a Washington Post reporter while still alive as being essentially the same thing--both had "strongest denial".

Seriously, think about it. Kavanaugh must have choked on his coffee.

5. D Robb
     (10/17/2018 10:05:59 AM)
     Message ID #313117

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Patricia, I see the question as being identical to the fighting climate change versus the economy question. We can reduce industrial emissions while creating jobs. It only takes the will to do it. Wind mills, solar panels, electric cars, public transportation, and fixing our crumbling infrastructure would do far more for the economy than tax cuts for uber rich friends of the president.
Similarly, we can be a moral nation and have an excellent economy. In fact, it is easier to do the latter. Nobody wants to make ‘deals’ with a congenital liar because they know they cannot trust him to do his side of the bargain. That is why trump had to go to the Russians and Saudis to get financing. Reputable financing sources were afraid he would declare bankruptcy again and stiff them.

6. D Robb
     (10/17/2018 10:08:32 AM)
     Message ID #313118

This message is in response to Patricia Pomerleau ( message id #313116 )  View All Related Messages

I agree. It is not surprising though because trump obviously has a low opinion of Kavanaugh. trump stated that he believes that Kavanaugh had a drinking problem. Obviously, trump also believes that taking advantage of women and abusing them is a male 'right'.

7. Michael O'Neill
     (10/17/2018 10:10:05 AM)
     Message ID #313119

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Obviously there is no way to vote Republican and have morals and ethics. White supremacists? No problem, Dennison calls them good people. Paying porn stars while your wife is home recovering from childbirth? Shrug. Grab women in their crotches? Locker room talk. Tell 5,000 documented lies, including fresh ones this morning about having no business ties to Saudi Arabia? Must be fake.

You can't tell Dennison anything about the economy. The brilliant businessman took a $400,000,000 inheritance and made it worth one-fourth of what it would be worth if he had done nothing with it but bought S&P index funds. That's if he's worth what he claims to be, which is doubtful.

We already grew the economy and took the moral high ground. President Barack Obama took the second worst Republican economy in history and completely turned it around while maintaining ethics you and your children can be proud of. Compare that to the rogue's gallery of the current administration . Indictments, travel abuses, and yesterday, Dennison name-calling women. America hangs its head in shmae.

If the Dems take the House let the investigations of Dennison and his crime family begin, starting with emoluments.

8. Scott Walker
     (10/17/2018 10:12:22 AM)
     Message ID #313120

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Yes to improve economy is most important, but America needs trained workers,
A strong US economy is best.
With thousands of people from South of the Border, walking toward our country in Caravans, and the liberal left Democrats won’t approve any legislation that will allow any training or legal laws to protect our country. Trump said it’s a Great Midterm issue for Republicans by Reforming American Immigration, by Building the wall, Ending visa lottery, Ending chain migration. This will keep America on the path to future success.
Americans need to Support the RAISE act, that is important to the ethics and moral future of America.

9. D Robb
     (10/17/2018 10:18:13 AM)
     Message ID #313121

This message is in response to Michael O'Neill ( message id #313119 )  View All Related Messages

You are right, Michael. Faux news has no problem supporting a lying, immoral president, so they have no problem supporting a murdering, tyrannical crown prince: " the death of Khashoggi does not outweigh U.S. strategic concerns, which require that we maintain good relations with the Saudi government. We must react accordingly – not as a favor to the Saudis, but in our own national interest.
In the Middle East we must keep our eyes on the biggest threat in the region – the dangerous and virulently anti-American government of Iran, which poses a military danger to its neighbors and our ally Israel."

The fact that Kashoggi was cut up while he was still alive shouldn't bother anybody. Right???

10. Jefferson Packer
     (10/17/2018 10:24:09 AM)
     Message ID #313122

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A few years ago I went to the Salt Lake City public library to hear a veteran speak who had served two combat tours in Iraq and one in Afghanistan. He talked for over an hour, but the one quote I remember most clearly was this:

"Again and again, we heard that America was at war. But when I would come home on leave, what I saw was that America was at the mall."

In other words, we fought two decade-long wars, we killed well over 100,000 people, and America didn't notice.

Why didn't we notice? For one simple reason: There wasn't a draft. The wars were fought by an all-volunteer military that was made up mostly of the working class.

And what I learned from that, is that as long as Uncle Sam isn't coming for our white, middle class children to take the PS4 controllers out of their hands, shave their heads and pack them off to a foreign country to get shot at, most of America doesn't care who we kill.

This discovery almost destroyed my patriotism. As a young man, I had been deeply impressed by what I saw as the morality of the peace and love movement of the 1960's. I collected the music, read the poetry, and truly believed that we were a good, decent country that cared about what was right and wrong.

But watching how America remained asleep during Iraq and Afghanistan forced me to accept the truth that the peace and love movement had been mostly self-interested; and had been made up mostly of spoiled children who were unconvinced of the need to risk their skins in Vietnam, and who cloaked their apathy, laziness and cowardice in morality.

It almost brings me to tears to have to say that out loud, but again, watching how we acted during Iraq and Afghanistan forced me to that conclusion. America had sent the message loud and clear: As long as it was only the working class who were volunteering to be cannon fodder, and as long as we didn't have to see the images of the 100,000+ dead on the nightly news, I believe we would have remained silent as a country no matter how high the kill numbers in Iraq and Afghanistan climbed.

But not all the blame for our national amorality can be placed on the middle class. During Iraq and Afghanistan, the American public was very skillfully manipulated by a corporate-owned mass media that learned from Vietnam, and from a corporate-owned government that learned from it as well. The power structure learned that the American people can't handle having their white, middle class children drafted for foreign military adventures, and it also learned that if the American people don't have to see the bodies on the news, they are more than happy to keep their heads firmly planted in the sand. And the power structure exploited those two facts to do what it wanted without any kind of real political backlash.

For the average middle-class American, as long as our money and our children are safe, we have demonstrated clearly over the past couple of decades that we don't care who else dies.
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